Best way to remove dangerous Tenant?

Landlord Discussion Legal
22

Hello to ‘Mum’. Thank you for helping, it means a lot. I’ve felt very alone (and threatened) while trying to work out what to do, and it’s really good to have support.

I don’t think you should get ANY abuse and hassle from Tenants, it’s completely wrong. The system needs to serve and protect both sides, it shouldn’t be biased.

I feel that my Tenant is a very dangerous individual, and the more I try to ‘close in’ on him, and the more I expose of his nasty life, the more vicious he gets, which is why this is so hard. I can see that he would defend any attempt to close the house, and he may try to set the Police on me if I blocked him from using it. He would also break in. He tells terrible lies (to anyone, including Police) and so does his son. He calls himself “Lord” (but isn’t a Lord). Very difficult guy.
The lawyer seems good and she seems up to date with all the current rules. She’s suggested collecting evidence, but the Tenant has fought back and says he refuses to be watched, he claims it’s “intimidation”. It’s useful to know that I could post any Notice myself. (And send 2 copies, as you did.) Maybe I could try that, for the Section 8. I don’t have much spare money…who does? I can see myself ending up penniless if this bad tenant decides to battle it out, just because he can. That’s very worrying.

23

Hi Rosie,

I am very grateful I never had what you have. I felt I couldn’t say anything to them in the end and dreaded it as knew there would be confrontation and arguments. The worry festers as there’s little a landlord can do and they are sitting tight in the property. Have got rid of them today though. (They did threaten to stay until the bailiffs arrived and not pay rent)

Your tenant sounds like a loose cannon so can understand you are terrified to rile him.

The Closure Order is issued by the Police or Council so he couldn’t report you for it or not obey it as he’d be arrested.

As the police have attended already due to his anti-social behaviour is that not evidence? Do the Police know about the drugs?

You could call the Police and the Anti-Social Behaviour Team at the council and ask them for more information on a Closure Order and urgent help. If the neighbours will help in reporting it too it’s meant to be confidential.

I don’t know if ia Closure Order applies to a private rental or commercial premises or both.

If nothing is sent in the way of Eviction Notices because you have been advised to wait, the longer it is going to take to get rid of him, so would it not be best to send something ASAP rather than nothing?

You said there’s proof of drugs and the Police have attended on a 999 basis, so just wondering what more your solicitor is waiting for?

Due to his violence it would be better if you had help sending out his Eviction Notices and he was aware other people with authority are involved. Don’t think it’s advisable you are seen to be alone in evicting him.

Is the solicitor just advising or would she help you prepare the Notices and even put in an enclosed letter so he can see there’s a legal body on board?

What a nightmare you are going through.

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24

Think the clue might be in the name but think a Closure Order may refer to commercial premises. Hope you can get some help soon

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25

Hello Mr T [Mum] :slight_smile:
Thank you so much for everything you’re telling me. Thank you for caring.
Apologies for the delay in replying - a Community Safety Officer has got involved this morning, which I’m hoping is a very good thing. The Tenant has gone to the Council several times claiming he is anxious he’s going to be homeless…(Well, if he paid his rent and wasn’t violent, he wouldn’t be being evicted, would he !!)

Anyway, it feels good to have someone in-the-middle, and you’re right, it’s essential to use an eviction agency, so there isn’t just little me fighting this bad Tenant. Layers of safety are what we need.

I’ve found another lady Landlord who was offered a Closure Order because of bad Tenants, and she says it caused her difficulty because her property got listed more or less as a Crime Scene and it damaged her ability to rent it out again. But I can see that in some cases it would be an enormous help, because you could stop a Tenant vandalising a nice property or shop, you could block them out.

The lawyer tells me that we can issue a Section 8, but we have to wait a full 6 months of notice before we can apply for a possession order. We have to wait all this long time, even though the Tenant is violent and destructive and suspected of crime. The government has unfortunately given bad Tenants a great opportunity to carry on doing bad things, and it’s a serious situation. Something needs to change, I think??

It’s really good to be in touch with you and I hope you will keep on writing, I’m learning a lot. xx

26

Hi Rosie,

Honestly feel free or you. Even though my son is the landlord I am on my own with it as he can’t cope with it either and doesn’t want to hear about it. Your situation really is horrendous.

This link says a Ground 14 of illegal behaviour under Section 8, says you can apply to the Court for a possession order as soon as you have sent the Section 8.

Maybe question your solicitor over this as all the different grounds have different time frames.

Ground 7a Anti-Social Behaviour is one month I think so don’t know where she’s got this six months from.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-and-renting-guidance-for-landlords-tenants-and-local-authorities/technical-guidance-on-eviction-notices 1

Keep us all informed bless you.

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27

dont worry about it being classed as a crime scene. Better to be rid and this may be a quick way

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28

Hi Mr/Ms T.
Thanks for this information. Thanks for making me aware.

My lawyer says she’s aware of the much quicker notice (grounds 7A + 14) but it seems to be a question of having enough compelling evidence to show a Court. There are other grounds which will definitely get him out (which is good) but they have this 6-month notice period (which is harmful to a Landlord and to my house). Plus of course there’s the long time it’s going to take to actually be offered a Court space, there’s a huge backlog of cases. And consequently lots of time for the Tenant to carry on with his bad things.

I’m told that you can’t use 7A and 14 alongside any other ground. If you add in e.g. rent arrears (which is a 6-month notice period) then the longer notice period applies, whatever.

What would you consider to be real evidence of serious anti-social behaviour?
And - I don’t know the answer to this - does the anti-social behaviour have to happen in the rented house or the same road, or can it happen anywhere in the town (or wider area)?

29

Hi Colin. Need to be rid - yes.
But I don’t want any attempt to evict or block him to fail. This will give him ammunition. He is clever with his words and he knows who to approach for support, and he knows what to say. He knows how to get in first. (Maybe he’s had a lot of practice.) I’ve never had to evict anyone before, so I’m having to learn how to do it.

It’s my bad luck that the laws have been changed because of the virus. It’s making me very vulnerable, too, because I’m not a young lady any more, and I’m out in the open with no home of my own. My biggest problem is how to manage the situation and keep myself + my disabled partner alive while it all gets sorted out, and it could take years.

30

Hi Rosie,

Good to hear from you and interesting to know that a Closure Order is actually valid for a private rental. We are all learning!

From what you described in your first post personally I would have said that was serious Anti-Social Behaviour and the neighbours are scared so it’s not just you and your property he’s affecting. Plus the Police record of attendance.

You mentioned there was proof of his drug use/dealings. Would that not be enough evidence?

I just don’t understand how a late rent Notice period of 6 months cancels out the most serious Ground 14 for illegal behaviour. Why even mention any other other Ground if you can use a Ground 14 with no notice period or one with a one month notice period?

I phoned three of the Eviction Agencies and they do answer questions with legal advice so might be worth asking them if you have enough evidence for a Ground 14 or 7a. Six month’s notice for such extreme behaviour just doesn’t sound right. You could be dead from the stress by then.

Would have thought Anti Social behaviour extends to the rest of the neighbourhood especially as you already have ASB relating to your property but that’s just my viewpoint. The text in that link says ‘annoyance/nuisance’ so don’t know what the interpretation is there. Perhaps someone else on here knows?

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31

Hello Ms T, and bless you for understanding. xx
Yes this will be very damaging to our health. Winter coming up, and only an old campervan… ouch. I don’t have any children so there’s nobody to go to. Friends can help out for a week or two, but not for 12 months or even 18 months, could be.

I’m told that the eviction courts closed back in March 2020 and didn’t open again till end of September. There were lots of cases already waiting in March, and they got stopped and have had to wait - so all these have to be cleared before any new ones (like mine) can even be started. They are hearing the anti-social behaviour ones before everything else but there’s a huge long list.

The trouble with relying on just Grounds 14 + 7a, is that there might not be enough ‘evidence’. With drugs, there are plenty of very clear photos but the Tenant hasn’t yet been caught “in the act”. (He was caught breaking in when there was no need to, but because he was the Tenant and not a burglar, it’s looked at differently, would you believe!)

I understand that the Police are investigating both him & his son for some offences from end of July (about a mile away from my house), but here again no charges have yet been brought, and unless there are actual charges or convictions it can’t be called seriously anti-social, and Police can’t release details while it’s still an investigation.

I know that Councils need a load of evidence before they will act on your behalf. Some years ago I had a very sick neighbour who threw stones at my conservatory and deliberately woke us up every day at 4a.m. I was asked to complete a diary of his behaviour over a period of months (which I did), and even then they didn’t do anything to stop him. (I sold the house!)

Like yourself, I don’t understand why a Landlord can be made homeless and income-less by a Tenant, yet the Tenant can carry on living in the house not paying any rent, and the Landlord is made to suffer. It’s ridiculous.

I will make some more calls today, to people who may know what else can be done. And yes, there may be people looking in here who can help.

32

Hi Rosie,

Thanks for the update. Think I understand now that any court wants a whole catalogue of evidence. It truly is shocking that a tenant can just carry on living in and damaging someone’s home to that extent, terrorising the neighbours and yourself and landlords simply have to stand by and watch.

Would you be able to get an agent to help you? Sill question I guess, expect no one will want to take the property on with such a monster in-situ.

Our situation wasn’t anything like yours but still felt very intimidated by them and the power they held plus all the arguments they caused. You are right they know what to say with the right buzz words that will land a landlord in it. We were on the receiving end of that too despite really going the extra mile with them. Had no plans to sell up and son needed that little bit of income it provided but couldn’t cope with the constant stress and their confrontational behaviour.

Let us all know how you go. There’s another person on here in a similar situation to you.

33

Hi Rosie,
You have some top advice here especially for Colin and Mr T. GO TO COURT ASAP, things will not get better, this thug is getting empowered by every day you do nothing.
Issue the notice ASAP. get all agencies on board. 2 more bits for you:

  1. If you suspect there will be any violence (physical or verbal) get the Police in, they must attend to prevent any abuse.
  2. These sort of people NEVER EVER attend Courts at hear eviction proceedings. So feel safe. Anyway, Courts always have their own Court Marshals and security to call on.
    You have quite a bit on your side, even though local councils are doubling down on Landlords.
    Go in peace.
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34

Hi John39, thanks a lot for this advice, I’m grateful.
Can you help further please.
I’ve been battered by the Council this afternoon. Feeling frightened.

A few weeks ago I had to travel 300 miles to my home to do an emergency inspection. My home was reported abandoned and the front door handle and lock was broken.

I’ve been told by the Council that I couldn’t do this (inspect, or repair) without the Tenant present. (He was given 48 hours’ notice. Didn’t show - and the house was considered abandoned.)
I’ve also been told I shouldn’t have photographed the damage, and I had no right to photograph any aspect of my home without the Tenant present.
The Council Officer has also written that to say that a Tenant can live however he chooses. (Which presumably includes breaking the law? and wrecking my home?)

But the lawyer is telling me I need evidence to present to a Court and should gather images…

Gobsmacked. How should I respond to the Council?

35

forget the council, get the photos. there is a word for that councilofficer and it begins with G. Do what your lawyer says. This tenant is running from the law.

36

Colin3
Yes he is running from the law :slight_smile:
Which Grounds could/should I use for the Section 8, which this Tenant won’t be able to defend? They need to be 100% effective, because I will only have one chance at this.

37

I dont know, take your advice from the Lawyer,

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38

Hi Rosie

Did you get the character report from his employer?
If you did and was a good report about him then you or your lawyer could contact saying he is not paying rent and all problems he is creating.

Many years ago I had a professional person graduated from Edinburgh university and had a very bad experience and then I called his employer. Even his employer’s details I found out from internet because he never told me when he changed the job and I just asked his boss to tell him to give me call and return the items he took from the flat and pay rent and damage to my properties. Also I reported to police.
I did get all items he took but not unpaid rent but then he cheated his employer/ business partner and left the country.

If he has not paid the rent money for 2 months I would just through the small court case and give CCJ since and same time with your lawyers advice and evict him.
Wish you all the best

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39

Hi Rosie

Just when you think you have heard it all and people wonder why landlords are being picky.

Agree with Colin forget the council and don’t even bother to respond.

You are allowed entry for an emergency repair and surely a broken lock constitutes this?

Think I would be phoning around anyone in the know that I could.

Ground 14 require (from what I can gather) that there is actually a conviction not just a charge or an arrest.

40

Your lawyer has told you to give him six months notice so maybe speak to a different lawyer who might have more experience of using the Section 8 Grounds. Possibly they will agree with the advice so far but they may have different experience of a similar situation.

Some solicitors will give a free initial consultation.

No harm calling the Eviction Specialists either. You don’t have to use them just see if they say they think his behaviour would be sufficient for a Section 8 Ground. Pick as many brains as you can.

41

Hi “Mr T”, you’re really helpful.
Yes I am picking brains this morning, I need to !!

The Council officer is laying into me and I need to be able to fight back.
I’m being told that a Landlord can’t take any photos of damage at an inspection - is this correct? We aren’t allowed to take any images of what a tenant-vandal has done to our house, it’s not allowed. (But the insurers, who will have to pay, say they need photographic evidence.)

Also the Council Officer says that a Landlord can’t carry out any inspection (neither routine nor emergency) unless the Tenant is standing there at their elbow watching everything. (How do you inspect, then, if the Tenant has abandoned the house or absconded or refuses to co-operate?)
Tenant was given 48 hours’ notice of the inspection and was invited to be there, and the Agreement clearly allows an inspection for repairs or to see damage.
But Council says I am a Bad Person.

Advice please. Thank you.
Rosie (feeling very injured)