Hi all,
Wondering if you could provide a view on this if you had any experience.
The background: the entire building of 4 flats paid for an expensive new roof terrace requested by the basement flat back in 2024 and as agreed, the basement flat hired the same builder who at the same time was doing their flat renovation. The builder has a 2-year warrantee for their work. Two years on, there is a leak from the terrace to the basement and the surveyor hired by the building management discovered the leak was caused by poor workmanship of the builder hired by the basement flat, and now the entire roof terrace needs to be rescontructed all over again and the work will involve removing the patio bi-fold door leading to the terrace from the ground floor (my flat)
The tricky situation: I own the Ground Floor flat which has access to the terrace, and the roof/terrace work will prevent the use of the terrace by the tenants in my flat and they will likely claim for rent abatements (they already attempted to claim for rent abatement when the surveyor asked for access to investigate the leak once and claimed this is disruptive to their quiet enjoyment). Should the building management make sure the remediation work will not result in long period of loss of the use of the balcony(say more than two weeks) and in any event of removing the balcony bi-fold door which will result in there is no back door for the property, the building management should arrange for alternative rehousing of the tenants before the work starts? and who should pay for the rent abatements when the tenants claim . Also just for context: the current tenants are already paying a rent with big discount paying 200 pounds less per month than the previous tenants paid as they asked for a big discount when they moved in and I agreed. The property is in a lovely neighborhood with good features throughout and always in high demand without any void period since it was rented out 5 years ago.
Thanks and appreciate your advice.
@Helen2023
the lower rent paid by current tenants than previous is totally irrelevant to whom pays any discount etc due to works; unclear what the 'discount ’ was for but whatever you agreed was the market price agreed I don’t understand why you think that in any way affects discounts subsequently due to lack of the roof terrace during repairs.
If the expensive roof terrace is for use by your tenants, why was it requested by basement flat below? Very strange.
Unclear why the doors need removing and why they can’t be secured by a temporary solution during the works - and if the roof for basement flat needs replacing why can’t that be done by accessing from below or using scaffolding? Is it simply more ‘convenient’ (cheaper) via your flat? In any case find out how long works will take
the tenancy contract is between you and tenants so any reduced rent for lower facilities, or rehousing during works is entirely a matter between you and them. However it ‘might’ be covered by the building insurance for the flat downstairs or the building insurance for the block but I think that’s pretty unlikely. Unless they’ve made your property uninhabitable it will just be inconvenient for anyone living in your flat for the 2 weeks difficult to justify any re- housing etc. You can try claiming against them but if you were living in the flat yourself and had to move our during the repairs would you be claiming? It also may be covered by your own landlord building insurance if you have that. It’s hardly the fault of the building maintenance company or flat downstairs that the original works were faulty tho. If they are claiming from original builder (presumably inconveniences basement flat occupants too) they could claim for you too but I wouldn’t hold out much hope..
check your tenancy agreement normally there are clauses allowing access for the LL and any trades etc needed to carry out works. Your tenants have been rather unreasonable in trying to claim a reduction just for a surveyor investigating a leak. Whereas not having use of part of the facilities advertised for a couple of weeks does justify a reduction and you’ll need to suck that up.
I would tell tenants you can’t tell how long the works will last and suggest you and they end the tenancy in the circumstances. They are paying (according to you) 200 quid below market rate and behaving unreasonably. Better to have it empty during the works and get better new tenants.
Good luck
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I think its not unreasonable for you to decline any further discount, but you should also offer to release them from the tenancy with short notice under the circumstances.
Allowing a £200 a month reduction may have been a mistake if they now think you’ll just roll-over on any request they make.
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Thanks very much @David240 and @David122 for the thoughtful advice.
To answer your question of why the work needs removing my patio door is because the surveyor has recommended to install seal to stop future potential leak under the patio door -and without removing it, the current space beneath it wont allow the installation. They also need to cut the glass panel and frame of the bi-fold door short in the current patio door to adjust to the new height.
My terrace is also the roof of the basement flat- it was established in the building lease the roof/terrace is a building structure and any repair to be paid by the entire building.
Given the original builder who did the new terrace/roof would likely to come back to remedy their work based on what the surveyor has recommended, there will not be any building insurance we can claim for. But this is not a fault of mine, so my understanding is, it should be reasonable to ask the building management what is the solution in the case of the builder removing the bi-fold door and result in no back door of the property and who will pay for any rent abatement claim from tenants (which I am sure the tenants who already behaved unresonablly will likely to claim again in such event.) due to such work before agreeing to them accessing the property for the work.
Giving the tenants a 200 pounds per month discount from what previous tenants were paying was a mistake - at the time their moving in date was early and they had full time jobs and I thought they could be good without giving me much trouble - how wrong I was!
@Helen2023
find out from surveyor whether the doors need to be off entirely for the whole period the roof terrace is being re-done, or whether they can be removed just for a 1/2 a day when removing the bit underneath, put back and later removed/put back with shorter version when fitting the new bit/seal underneath.
And if new door height needed is known/can be measured, why new shorter door cant be fitted at start and removed just when needed to fit the seal/new section under the door, and then put back straight away after that. Seems much easier to adjust the seal height than the door anyway
Seems unreasonable and unnecessary to have no door for the whole 2 weeks just because you will need it removed/shortened at some point to fit the seal.
Is that far too obvious or am I missing something?
the fact you are getting the repairs done under warranty not through insurance isnt the point; your block’s building insurance may have cover for occupants to be housed elsewhere when the property is uninhabitable and repairs needed - this could be for fires, flooding or in your case repairs to the structure of the property. It’s worth finding out [you can request a copy of the policy schedule from the management co.] - if it does contain such a clause you can ask management co to claim on it, and they’d have little reason to refuse, after all it’s the reason you and other flat owners will be paying the service charge inc the buildings insurance in the first place.
Good luck
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Thanks @David240 .
Your view is absolutely valid - I do not believe they need to remove the patio bi-fold door the whole time, I will check with them and find out the solution from the builder before agreeing with their access to the property for the remedy work.
My only concern is half a day might not be enough for them to fit back the bi-fold door as it has 3 glass panel in it and also they need to cut the panel and frame to adjust to the new height to be able to leave enough space underneath to install the seal. In the case of them not being able to put back the door before the end of the day, a property might not be deemed inhabitable as there is no secured door and the tenants again will claim from it. I will have to ask the building management /builder about what is the solution and can they put in any temp door in there if this is the case. But hopefully as you suggested, they should be able to measure the new height needed and remove and re-install the patio door in the same day!
Per the building insurance cover for rehousing- as far as I understand such cover only for situations caused by risks insured. And in my case, this is poor workmanship and is not covered by the building insurance. Only if all building managements act so professionally to interpret building insurances on behalf of blocks! Sadly they are not.
@Helen2023 is there any access to roof terrace other than via the bifold doors eg through a communal garden at rear which has no gates and anybody can get to from the street?
Or would access be available only for tenants in basement using a ladder to climb onto the roof terrace?
If no general public access to the roof terrace it’s the same as the doors to a private back garden and not having a working door temporarily for a day or two doesn’t really mean the property isn’t secure and means tenants need rehousing. They (and you) just need to tell their (your) contents insurance provider when the work is going on
- anyway must be possible to board over exactly the same as if doors were broken by a cricket ball smashing the glass.
You wouldn’t rehouse tenants in that circumstance would you? I very much doubt that counts as uninhabitable it’s just not very convenient, and unlikely you have to rehouse tenants in those circumstances - which won’t stop them asking
"When a resident’s home is deemed unfit for habitation, landlords may need to consider a decant—temporarily moving them to alternative accommodation. This allows for significant repairs, renovations, or redevelopment. In some cases, a permanent move may be necessary.
" Temporary moves | Landlord expectations | Housing Ombudsman
Best
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So will this create a step up onto the terrace from within your property? If so any leaks under that frame will be entering your property. Sounds like a new bi fold door and frame should be installed and if the glass is double glazed new units will be needed.?
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Thanks @David240 and @David79 for your thoughtful advice.
The surveyor only said in his report the patio bi-fold door needs removing to install the seal underneath, and yes, the door is double glazed. Your view makes sense and I will need to check with the building management/builder what they are going to do after removing the door - are they going to install a new unit as you rightly suggested.
And yes, the terrace is a private space only accessible by my flat through the living/reception area where the patio bi-fold door opens up to the terrace. The basement flat does not have access to my terrace, if they climb up to my terrace through their back garden it will be deemed as trespassing.
I am trying to understand how lifting my patio door will create leaks from the terrace into my property. As far as I understand, they will seal the bi-fold door above the surface of the terrace and with the seal underneath the bi-fold door they claim to prevent rain splash through the bi-fold door into he basement flat. The seal they have done around the bi-fold door base itself is deemed to have high risk of leaks from underneath if seal is not installed underneath the door. For some context - the surveyor hired by the building management has spent more than 6 months doing the investigation from Demcember last year and still only now came back to say they have found the source of the leak. So the quality of their work and recommendation is also raising questions.
@Helen2023 if it’s a private space, there’s no need to rehouse the tenants.
the builder may just be able to adjust exactly where the frame is fitted or adjust any ‘spacers’. The frames for double glazes windows and for bi fold doors as well I expect have to have some tolerances around them to allow for expansion/contraction of materials during different temperature/weather conditions
where exactly is the problem with the roof terrace? if the main issue is a small leak due to there not being a good enough seal under your bifold doors than removing and re-fitting or replacing those after putting in the right seal will do the job. Or is there a different problem with the roof terrace and the door seal is a secondary thing that ought to be fixed at same time by the builder?
It’s not unusual for small leaks to take some time to find the source of the problem - when the weather is dry as it has been even more so. water does travel within structures under roofs [along rafters or over the felt/membrane. Joints between walls and roofs are a common weak point as people dont check/maintain the sealant. It may be worth asking surveyor whether as well as a proper seal, if there ought to be some sort of drainage channel all round the edge of the roof terrace surface, which then feed into the gutters, and/or if the roof terrace surface should be at a slight angle to drain water away from your door, ie like a flat roof. If they are replacing the roof terrace surface anyway, then they might as well design it properly to make water drain properly and not cause leaks.
Good luck
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Ahh so maybe they are going to create an upstand under the bi fold doors? In that case you’ll have to step over the upstand and frame to access the terrace? You’ll need to look very closely at how the works to benefit the basement flat will impact your own flat. Usually the good thing about bi fold doors is the open flowing effect they create when folded back.
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That’s a good point. Hopefully the seal will be small in height but absolutely agree @Helen2023 needs to understand what the surveyor is proposing to use to seal gap between frame and the terrace it sits on.
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Thanks very much @David240 and @David79 .
My current patio door already has an upstand, from what I understand from the surveyor’s report, they are saying there is not enough gap under the current upstand to the patio door to install seal underneath , and so they need to remove the patio door itself. Hence my understanding of them having to cut the glass panel and the frame itself now that there will be shorter height for for the glass panel and frame to fit back in after the raising of the upstand of the door (attached photo). However the surveyor did not say in the report how they are going to put the door back in after removing it. And yes there was drainage system created around the edges of the terrace when the roof terrace was reconstructed 2 years back in 2024.
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The reason they are asking to entirely re-construct the terrace/roof now again is they said the leak is from a reservior formed under the terrace surface and has damaged the steel beam underneath without any photo of damage to the steel beam and the plywood decking under the terrace surface also needs replacing again. I find it difficult to understand how some small leaks like this could cause damage to steal beam given they are made of steal?
