Hi Andrew
Yes, to continue your analogy these are certainly very rough seas that we are sailing on and there will be many ships dashed on the rocks. In fact it’s a tsunami, no less, and it ain’t stopped yet. When disaster hits we have to be flexible and do all we can to keep afloat, downsize, divest of heavy things we are carrying, take less rent and see what we can do. One of the things that has struck me most about this (and this is just personal, but it really came home to me) is that being able to change and be flexible is absolutely imperitive to survive - otherwise you just get left behind. Diversify to stay afloat. This means in attitude and vision as well.
I agree that the impact is going to be colossal, I even think we are being protected by the government and the press (for a change) from the real magnitude of what it means that the whole population will be staying indoors for what looks like 2 months at the least – its just huge and the realisation just keeps unfolding. But any wealthy person will tell you that money and opportunities can be found in a recession – it is all about mindset and how you look at things. There is no doubt that many will not survive (business or otherwise), but those who do not change and go with the flow will find it even more painful. Three days ago I heard of someone with a portfolio of 17 properties (R2R) who has decided to hand them all back and he’s going back to his home-country. So for someone out there (could be us) that will be a huge opportunity - not easy or straight forward admittedly, but most definitely an opportunity. I think it will be all about working in partnership with the landlords, because it doesn’t make sense for only one party to take the full responsiblity for rent in the situation we are in now.
Our business is primarily aimed at helping landlords manage multi-lets (of 3 beds or more) which yield more income than single lets and is also a way to hedge the risks (if you manage it properly that is – otherwise it is an almighty headache; some may say more tenants more hassle but we say more tenants more income - again, its all perspective). We care massively for the properties because they are how we make money. Of course the landlord has 100% interest in the asset and that asset increases in value by the year which is 100% his as well – but we take on all legal responsibilities for it under the management contract and help him earn and income from it as well. Property is one of the greatest investments it’s just that being a landlord isn’t for everyone.
We are actually conducting some research into supply and demand for our business. Since our conversations I think I will be calling it tenant and property management.
On a high note Andrew, I am hearing so many people now say that for those owning property this is the best time. I know it may not seem like that – but maybe you could get in on some of those property forums where there is a little more positivity – it can’t hurt. Good luck to you – hang in there – people will always need a home to live in, it just means that we will have to become a little more competitive.
Best to you.
Deborah
I think i may have something for you to research as i for 1 am a lone ranger as are most smaller Landlords & i have discovered an issue, i dont seem to be able to find any sort of Management Company for my needs which im guessing a lot of Landlords would use.
When i want to go away for 2-3 weeks on holiday i dont have anyone to mind the fort as Management Companies seem to all be a monthly thing where you sign up for a 12 month deal and pay monthly yet what about all the self managing landlords whom want to self manage yet need someone competent to mind their fort for a couple of weeks, mainly to be a point of contact and to address any emergency issue during vacation and arrange tradesmen and communicate with the Landlord via overseas say via Skype etc, almost like a competent friend whom you pay to be there on a uk phone number ready to deal with any urgent issues etc as im scared to leave a 6 bed HMO in SW London and disappear for any length of time as i travel a lot normally too, especially skiing every xmas for 2-3 weeks and this is a big concern for me, what do you think Deborah?
andrew 8 Doyou not have a good builder, electrician and plumber contact number who you can use?
Hi Andrew, that is a good point and would make a good service indeed. I will get on to this and come back to you by the end of the day with our thoughts and suggestions. We actually came across a management company a day or two ago on our travels, and then of course there is us! But will get back to you today.
Deborah
No Colin, i have been looking for a roofer for 8months as i have multi roof leaks yet just cant get anyone competent, builders are same detail, sparkies, gas & plumbers are the only easy to find trades, its disgusting as i have properties empty due to roof leaks being my number 1 issue & whats worse is that i know exactly what and how to do the jobs yet still cant get the works done
Ow, i have probably called more than 60 roofers for quotes too
Standard 3 bed mid terrace houses max 3 floors however i dont have an issue due to the access or height, just the competence of the tradesmen is ridiculously bad, I’ve been through the Rated People, mybuilder, CORC, Trusted Trader, Trading Standards Approved, NFRC etc yet i only actually receive about 5% quotes if that and out of that they are clearly lacking in basic knowledge and/or skill and/or just want to grossly over price the job as well as being incompetent, its ridicules, 1 property in East London is a standard 3 bed mid-terrace house & just needs chimney leadwork, flaunching, a slate baton to be replaced along with a bit of replacement underlay (sarkin) etc and gutters & fascia boards changing, really basic stuff really and the issue is that i know their job better than them and they dont seem to like that i know the job hence they cant con me or take control of the job as i am a very hands on developer, i also found it impossible to get a simple CURE-IT flat roof done, i went through dozens of flat roofers to only find that they had no idea how to do a fibreglass CURE-IT flat roof let alone a warm deck type, i even offered to direct the job and they can learn as they go and i will supervise every step of the way, i eventually got a chap to do it and i needed to stop him half way in as he had messed it up badly, he didnt leave any wood expansion gap, he messed up the vapour barrier and 100mm insulation including mixing wrong chemicals and laying wrong including screwing up the fascias and the trims and now i need to remove it all and start again, i had even pre-bought all roofing stuff hence was employing labour only to ensure i had quality materials.
Wow .It does not surprise me, I took a load of insulation to a builder, he found out i am a joiner and asked could I put a roof on a double storey with 2 valleys and 3 hips I did so and battened it out. I then worked indoors and he got aroofer in .What a mess, the hips were not straight and the breakages ! This chap had loads of work, Then the builder asked me to put a dormer on another roof and got the same roofer back. Well he got sacked and you should have heard the arguements. Most people dont know what happening on a roof so the work can be shoddy…
gone are the days of good tradesmen, its a shame that OpenRent to offer out such tradesmen as i have used their recommended sparks, gas & EPC all very good prices and more professional than elsewhere for sure
Hi Andrew
So we’ve been doing some thinking and some cursory research today into your idea about what we could call, for now, an HMO babysitting service. We’ve found the idea very interesting and I am sure you are absolutely right that there may be landlords (lone rangers as you say) who may like to make use of this service. A disclaimer here from us before going further; we would be inclined to jump at the opportunity to provide that service to you, but I really feel that it is much more important that we simply have the discussion with you in a way that we are not trying to sell any services – so that we can have an ‘investigating’ and frank approach and discussion of the service itself (what you would want from it) and whether it would provide a valid business opportunity for us (or any other operator).
One of the main issues we would need to investigate as a priority and which I suspect will form the foundation of the subject, is how the legal responsibility for the property would present itself over the ‘management period’. For that I would like to speak to a solicitor.
We found two providers in this area (HMO Management) one didn’t even pick the phone up and the other was extremely efficient and appears to have a very cost effective and impressive service model (more research on our side continues and we fill you in on all the options). The one I did connect with seemed efficient and knowledgeable - and when I asked her whether they would consider a short-term ‘babysitting’ period she was a bit stumped at the idea but when I pursued it she said she didn’t think it was worth going to the trouble of transferring tenants over to their management for such a short period (so obviously she was thinking of their overall business model – not of this new idea). For my part I think it will be reasonably straight forward to modify a management agreement (the standard contract used for management services) to suit a ‘temporary agreement of responsibility’ for the property – but again, I am now thinking that there would be insurance implications too. Anyway……you see my thought process (a solicitor needed), and that is just on our side.
Moving over to the discussion of what you, as the client (landlord), would want in terms of a service; So this is how you describe your needs/considerations:
-
A competent friend for a self-managing landlord to be available 24/7 to ‘mind the fort’
-
Be main point of contact (for tenants and tradesman)
-
To address emergency issues
-
To arrange/be responsible for tradesmen
-
To keep landlord updated/skype calls etc.
The one question I have at the moment on the above (no doubt there will be others) would be do you have your own list of tradesmen?
So, I hope you think that this is a good beginning discussion of the subject. I’d be interested in your thoughts so far.
Best. Deborah
Andrew and Colin - I could recommend an excellent builder - I found one of his workers at a friends house and was so impressed I got the number of the builder. I went to meet him on one of his sites (beyond Harrow) at 7am on a Saturday morning in late November 2019. His full team was on site, respectful, busy, industrious and builder is well organised and very polite and humble and busines like. The entire house was gutted top to bottom when I met him and the client moved in to the finished house by Christmas 5 weeks later. I got 4 references and spoke personally to all of them (they were all very very good) AND I met this first client (below) personally - an absolutely top notch architect plus architect wife (yes double architects), so their reference is worth a lot. Here below are two of the four references I got.
Reason I am sharing is that I just love really good builders (& consider myself a good judge of character). A good honest builder not only is very hard to come by but can so royally screw up a job (and arguably your life!!!) that when you find a good one it’s like finding rare gold. My ambition is to work with him because he is so good. I have one more too!!! To me builders are the gold standard in property!!! References below.
CLIENT ONE: Architect couple self-confessed ‘very picky and particular’. Fully gutted, a first floor flat in Victorian mid-terrace including electrical, plumbing, floors, took off roof, went up one floor, created additional space. They tendered to 5 contractors and this builder came in at mid-range. Things turned out very well. Full team on site every time, so v. good commitment. Experienced workmanship, speedy response to issues. Great dialogue and lots of positive design proposals which were taken on. On time and on budget. As a client we were on top of the job the whole time and builder kept up with us well. Very clear communication and when issues were brought up solutions happened immediately. Was happy with price and quality.
Client TWO
North Finchley. Big build: 3 bed house full renovation and extension at the rear and the side and the loft, and built an outhouse. Very pleased. Very decent workmanship, pricing very fair for the quality, honest man, very helpful. Came in within budget – no deviation on agreed price. Unavoidable delays, drainage issues meant things went over time – any delays were outside his control. Very fast workers, very honest – but not rushing, or comprising. Excellent communication. Very accommodating ref. snagging and he is flexible, patient, reasonable and fair. Other quotes were similar, he may be slightly above others. Very pleased indeed that he chose Nikos. Very honest, kind and lovely guy. Work fully under contract. All the team were great pleasant.
debora.h I dont need a builder, I am one. Have worked in private houses for 50 years and with the same other joiner… as business partners. I work for landlords, on listed buildings, on my own rental properties. We now do work for the children of our customers from years ago. Never advertised, never joined any trade association, slowing down now so we take on smaller jobs., but I just love building things and the more challenging the better… 4 years time served, not many of us left !!
Hi Deborah that’s very kind offer from you however Colin is Northwest England and I am all over London however I can confirm that the majority of tradesmen will not travel further than a few miles and they most certainly will not travel from Harrow or the north of London all the way over to East London or Southwest London as they tend to be scared of too much travel in London I have found.
I already have an amazing builder that does Full rip out from start to finish but unfortunately he will not do smaller jobs, hence I need a small time quality builder that is happy to do small jobs but that is not my greatest concern at the moment as I have a massive roof dilemma, I am wondering Deborah if there is a gap in the market for you to make some kind of website like a tradesman website yet very specific tradesmen for landlords you could call it something like tradesmen for landlords all landlords recommending trades the landlords so as the landlords recommend the tradesmen as I can assure you there is nothing out there like that I am wondering Deborah if there is a gap in the market for you to make some kind of website like a tradesman website yet very specific tradesmen for landlords you could call it something like tradesmen for landlords or landlords recommending trades the landlords so as the landlords recommend the tradesmen as I can assure you there is nothing out there like that as I have spent many man hours searching the net.
It would be really lovely if there was such a website that could be broken down to postcode areas and all landlords in that postcode area could recommend tradesmen directly to other landlords in that same postcode coverage area.
I found an amazing roofer he is in the neighbouring town which is about 10 minutes drive away maximum however he refuses to travel that far, I even offered to pay him an extra £200 each time he travels the 10 minutes yet he said no way.
And as for Colin I am just wondering when he is coming down to London to sort my jobs out as I have them piled up waiting for him, I can even offer free accommodation during the works but I know it’s pointless asking him as I know he would never come down for that.
I went to visit friends in London several years ago . Never again. The traffic was horrendous. There is something to be said about working your own patch of 50 miles in one direction. You know the traffic flow ,all the suppliers, all the contacts, having lived all over Merseyside , I can see a house from outside and you know what to expect as to constuction.
Thanks all. Understood. Colin, sounds like you have a lovely business there!
Andrew. Just wondering if you had any thoughts on my email (pre-the builder email) regarding the HMO babysitting idea?
Thanks.
Deborah
Hi Deborah, I don’t recall seeing whatever it is that you’re talking about can you send me a link or copy and paste it or something as I’d love to read it?
Ah sorry - it might have got lost as I sent the builder story directly after it. So here it is again. Sorry you didn’t see it as I sent it the next day. 
Hi Andrew
So we’ve been doing some thinking and some cursory research today into your idea about what we could call, for now, an HMO babysitting service. We’ve found the idea very interesting and I am sure you are absolutely right that there may be landlords (lone rangers as you say) who may like to make use of this service. A disclaimer here from us before going further; we would be inclined to jump at the opportunity to provide that service to you, but I really feel that it is much more important that we simply have the discussion with you in a way that we are not trying to sell any services – so that we can have an ‘investigating’ and frank approach and discussion of the service itself (what you would want from it) and whether it would provide a valid business opportunity for us (or any other operator).
One of the main issues we would need to investigate as a priority and which I suspect will form the foundation of the subject, is how the legal responsibility for the property would present itself over the ‘management period’. For that I would like to speak to a solicitor.
We found two providers in this area (HMO Management) one didn’t even pick the phone up and the other was extremely efficient and appears to have a very cost effective and impressive service model (more research on our side continues and we fill you in on all the options). The one I did connect with seemed efficient and knowledgeable - and when I asked her whether they would consider a short-term ‘babysitting’ period she was a bit stumped at the idea but when I pursued it she said she didn’t think it was worth going to the trouble of transferring tenants over to their management for such a short period (so obviously she was thinking of their overall business model – not of this new idea). For my part I think it will be reasonably straight forward to modify a management agreement (the standard contract used for management services) to suit a ‘temporary agreement of responsibility’ for the property – but again, I am now thinking that there would be insurance implications too. Anyway……you see my thought process (a solicitor needed), and that is just on our side.
Moving over to the discussion of what you, as the client (landlord), would want in terms of a service; So this is how you describe your needs/considerations:
- A competent friend for a self-managing landlord to be available 24/7 to ‘mind the fort’
- Be main point of contact (for tenants and tradesman)
- To address emergency issues
- To arrange/be responsible for tradesmen
- To keep landlord updated/skype calls etc.
The one question I have at the moment on the above (no doubt there will be others) would be do you have your own list of tradesmen?
So, I hope you think that this is a good beginning discussion of the subject. I’d be interested in your thoughts so far.
Best. Deborah
[/quote]
Hi Deborah, well I can sure tell you what my requirements would be to be tantalised by such a kind of babysitting service, I can only presume that other self managing landlords would also like a similar service as the main problem I find is that I do not want to actually handover all the tenants details and so forth and therefore require a much simplified kind of service as follows;
I was thinking more along the lines of I receive a call or an email as standard protocol from a tenant informing me of an issue, and let’s say the issue is more complicated than a couple of minutes self-diagnostic on the telephone with the tenant then I would require a local person trusted to step in, I would then call the said babysitting service and request For the service to commence and let’s say I had a lead tenant I could simply email or text through name and number along with property location address and any other specific details in order to deal with the emergency as it would only be an emergency service quired so if there was a leak then the leak needs stop immediately and if there is a follow-up Service then obviously this would need to be arranged on if I am sending you my tradesmen or if I require you to make arrangements for a local tradesmen.
I think of it more like if I had a friend or in your terminology a babysitter then I would clearly call the said babysitter and at that point the babysitter would require payment of either an hourly rate or a day rate, The babysitter may wish to 1st call the tenant directly in order to ascertain the problem in order to be able to give the best price structure I would envisage, as it could be an emergency rapid response service where there is water spilling out everywhere and therefore that service the babysitter would need to go and sort the problem out either themselves or to babysit the tradesmen until they have sorted the problem out and any tradesmen can be paid directly by the landlord remotely.
I’m not sure how one would structure the system to be fair and reasonable I would probably estimate an hourly rate would be the most common easiest way to deal with The price structure and a possible incentive discount for landlords to continue to use the service as what this kind of arrangement does is it eliminates the necessity to handover lots of documents data information and responsibilities and so forth from the landlord to the babysitter and it is a lot more risk free for the babysitter whilst also looking to benefit the landlord very greatly in the aspects of not needing to pay a constant monthly fee for doing what I would call almost nothing, yet as a business one would be probably charging more like a tradesman or a manager of tradesmen as a temporary arrangement.
I’ll give you an example of one of my last tenant issues that I had to deal with whilst I was in a remote location in Africa with very limited telephone and Internet opportunities;
This tenant in particular was not Internet savvy therefore emails and Skype was a big no-no and telephone calls were in excess of £1.80 a minute and the tenant couldn’t even change a lightbulb and in this instance simply the boiler was not working and I tried for two hours calling and calling and nothing but issues and I got absolutely nowhere due to my location.
I ended up needing to email somebody I knew for them to call the tenant put them on speakerphone then they called me on an Internet connection and I spoke to the tenant in directly via a relay station which was two phones one on the Internet and one running through a phone line on speakerphone it was very messy to say the least, anyway after day after day after day going by this continued and confusion did nothing but get greater and greater between very simple communication and all I was asking was very basic information like what was the pressure on the boiler what exactly was the boiler not doing and when did it start not doing it and other simple things like that in order to know the problem as I strongly suspected they have bled the central heating system to the points that the pressure had been depleted and if this was the case as I suspected it to be then clearly this is a tenant job and not a landlord job as all they would have to do is refill the boiler. I needed to diagnose this before I was willing to call out a boiler engineer as this tenant in particular had complained about similar issues before and when I had got there I had discovered that a boiler engineer was not needed and there was a simple fix for example.
Otherwise I would’ve simply have employed a boiler engineer to have gone there and collected about £80 to have refilled the system and then the tenant would call again and do the same the next day and so on and so forth forevermore until my bank account had run out of cash.
So you may be able to see much better the kind of issues that need to be resolved and could quite easily be resolved if I had a babysitter to call give the telephone number and say please find out what the issue is and then the babysitter would call me back and tell me what the issue is and recommend how to move forward from there and what the charges would be for them attending site and or attending site and organising a tradesmen and watching them do the job for instance.
Hiring the babysitter service would obviously cost and that cost would be much greater than just hiring the tradesmen however I don’t do just hiring tradesmen unless there is a competent person there to manage the tradesmen otherwise the tradesmen could claim anything they wanted to claim was broken knowing they could get away with ripping off the landlord extremely easy and this is what would usually happen so it is imperative that a competent person is on site if a tradesman is needed or not in most cases just to get eyes on the issue at the very least and as the landlord would not be paying a regular monthly charge for nothing to happen then clearly when something does happen they would be paying for it to be dealt with and can have complete peace of mind that a competent set of eyes and ears are on ground and ultimately alleviating the stress for the landlord in being accused of not acting appropriately or fast enough as you know in this day and age landlords are very much responsible and under the microscope for not carrying out necessary repairs or urgent matters etc.
I hope I haven’t gone on too much and got you lost do you let me know if I have made any sense and what you think?
It may sound a little bit messy but there’s always money in a mess and I think the biggest USP to this service is that it does not exist!
You would be able to offer something that nobody else does and you may be able to brag about it at the landlord events and maybe try and get in there with the NRLA a or the NLA or the RLA As I would imagine most accredited landlords to be self managing.
Hi Andrew
Sorry for the delay in coming back to you. I don’t think this would work for us, it is a little bit messy as you say and although there is money in a mess sometimes the mess isn’t worth the money, if you know what I mean. I agree with Colin’s suggestion that you could use a trusted contractor (a necessary asset if you own or manage a property) or someone you know well/friends/family to act as the go-between to relay messages back to you when overseas and who would be happy for the hourly rate. I can see why theservice itself isn’t out there yet and it would take some research from other self-managing landlords to see if there’s a market for it and it would be interesting to find out what solution to this problem have found. I’m sorry that it wouldn’t be for us. Best wishes. Deborah