Landlord Attending During works - Opinions Please

[Chris35]

Sounds a bit suspicious to me, I suspect they have something to hide and don’t want to be making changes to cover up their breach of your contract, e.g. an unauthorised pet, additional resident, drug dealing or even running a cannabis farm.

Just explain you are making an inspection of the property, not the way they live. It’s irrelevant if they have a sink full of dirty dishes and are not tidy, as long as their lifestyle is not detrimental to the property, e.g. causing damage or mould.

Of course you need to abide by your TA’s T&C”s in respect to the periods of inspections.

An alternative approach could be to speak to your electrician and ask him to take photos of the electrical installation and have a personal chat with him before and after he finishes his work to see if he’s noticed anything untoward. That way you could learn something without the tenant being aware of your vigilance.

Another possible approach is to install CCTV externally, with a remote viewing app, which would identify the comings and goings.

I’m currently trying to gain possession following an ignored S21 from a tenant who’s Father (guarantor) pays his rent while he doesn’t work, receives UC and contributes nothing, but he managed to buy a brand new car last year. You don’t need to be Einstein to work that one out, he’s obviously up to no good, which has been reinforced by the visits from police and threatening notes stuck to his post box from undesirable acquaintances. The police have even been and broken the door down costing me over £300 to fix as they deemed it a legally entitled entry using necessary force, so are not liable for repairs. What an ass the law is!

You certainly don’t want it to get that far whilst you still have the option of an S21.

[LandlordTenant]

It could also be that they’ve had experience with intrusive or scary landlords - or if they’re young first time renters they may be really clueless that this is appropriate/ necessary and properties are massive assets to landlords. If you like the tenants maybe assuage their fears and bring some spare lightbulbs to sweeten the visit. My recent tenants were first time renters and they’ve turned out to be sweet tenants. If it’s dodgy then good luck!

[John175]

Serve them with a 21. If they’re gonna be awkward now they’re always gonna be awkward. I’ve been here and worn the t shirt. I have 5 properties. I lost the first section 21 and it cost me 8K. But I won the second one. It was worth every penny as rents have shot up. My rent at the time was £795 a month now £1395 a month. So won’t take me long to get my 8K back. Mind you I understand under the new reform act you will be able to sell as long as you give 4 months notice.

[David240]

@John175 being reluctant late at night in some txt exchanges to have both LL and electrician inside during an EICR because it’s unusual is hardly enough to serve a s21 for otherwise good tenants. Do you serve s21 for every possible area of tension? Or do you take the view upending people’s lives with little justification or evidence just suspicion is a good idea?

If they refuse or are very difficult about arranging an inspection visit which OP should arrange soon, that would be a different matter

Best

[Susan25]

I’m sorry to hear this, i cultivate a good relationship with my tenants before I agree to let them rent…I do several searches on them, Google AI brings up scammers, convicted felons, Facebook dodgy posts. I would be suspicious of this person.. my tenants are happy to let workmen in, they chat with me..but most of mine are hard picked immigrants to UK looking to get ahead in life. Good luck, get them out ASAP if it gets worse.

[Cherrie]

Hi the reasons you have given for attending are your own personal reasons and are not relevant to the tenancy requirements or appt per se.

Building rapport with new trades people should and can be done in your own time and does not need to be done at the property. This interferes with Quiet Enjoyment.

You do need permission from.the tenant regardless of how much notice you have given unless it’s an emergency and there is a need for you to attend for the purpose of rectifying the issue or letting a tradesman in. A tenant can rightly decline your request and it should be a request.

Looking at the work being done is not necessary unless perhaps you need to know for the purpose of any future visits where you may troubleshoot something before calling an electrician.

I would be inclined to discuss any work with your electrician outside of the appointment and respect the tenants decision to decline your presence.

It is their right to quiet enjoyment and should simply be respected without question.

When you book in a routine inspection after 3 months you could look at what you need to then if it’s routine but again a tenant can decline an inspection too if they feel it’s not routine.

I am a tenant and a landlord and see from.both sides.

I hope this helps.

[David240]

@Cherrie well said. Tbh txts late at night more an intrusion than a LL accompanying a tradesman. However LL also has responsibility to maintain a property so ‘sometimes’ accompanying them when they visit ‘may’ be justifiable - eg perhaps when a damp survey is being done to ascertain cause of problems and LL being present with knowledge of the property can be helpful.

Tend to agree in this case unless @Dean3 has specific points regarding the electrics they want to ask the electrician about during the EICR but even then these could be flagged in advance and discussed before/after the inspection and done outside the property.

Might be different if during inspection the electrician finds an issue and there are a couple of different solutions available- sometimes it is easier to show people stuff face to face - but even then a video call or some photos is usually enough. So an electrician might say rewiring an area is needed but only actually inside a property itself would you understand the extent of any consequent redecorating needed.

All part of the give and take between LL and tenant- which is also about how often inspections happen and how quickly non emergency repairs are done.

Sounds like @Dean3 and tenant have reached a reasonable compromise in this case

[Colin3]

A lot of comments here > i have NEVER had a tenant say you cannot be here. Often they tell me just to come in with the Elec/cen. htng. guy as they will be at work.

[David240]

@Colin3 nobody has been actually refused here. And that would be difficult indeed. What’s happened is a preference given and a compromise reached.

But probably hasnt happened to you a) because the tenants know you arent an intrusive LL and b).maybe youve been lucky and never had a tenant who has previously had a stalker or an intrusive LL and who consequently knows about ‘quiet enjoyment’ rights and c). that your tenants (i expect).know you are a builder, keep your places in good condition so they rarely need any work and as a builder would want to make sure any new tradesmen doing work were doing a good job

@Dean3 may not have those advantages with a new tenant where he’s not yet got a rapport and an understanding agreed with them on whats normal and will get there with time and having some inspection visits /chats to understand his and tenant’s perspectives on all this.

I have otherwise very good tenants who do seem reluctant to have me enter outside of pre booked visits - one because worried about escaping cats- even stopped my surveyor opening windows for that so i know not made up for my benefit - and the other im not entirely sure why. As it’s not really a big deal for me to see anything outside of inspection visits and I dont like standing over tradesmen when they are doing.their work, Ill probably let it go…

I can also understand tenants preferring not inviting LLs into their homes when not needed to avoid feeling judged and because LLs and tenants rarely want to be friends because then it’s more difficult if there ever are any difficulties on either side. Not everyone is thick skinned. Just like you dont invite the car salesman who did the hire arrangement to take a ride with you to check condition of the car (i accept that’s not a perfect analogy). I know they may be hiding something eg a pet or a partner or something else but if I really wanted to check for those things I’d be doing more inspections, asking neighbours, not turning an electrician’s visit into an excuse to go in.

Which is why doing inspection visits early and regularly as @tatemono advocates on these fora, is such a good idea and why @Dean3 should get one booked in…

Best

[tatemono]

@Colin3

i have NEVER had a tenant say you cannot be here.

Just to add my experience… I’ve been letting multiple properties since 1998 and have never once had a tenant refuse to allow me to enter the house when I’ve requested it for any reason. In fact, I’ve had several tenants allow me to enter when they’re not even there.

The only tenant in that entire time who was difficult in any way even let me attend whenever I deemed fit.

What’s described in the OP therefore seems suspicious to me because it doesn’t match my experience.

I am in the north though so…

[David240]

@tatemono good for you! Maybe @Dean3 and myself have been unlucky to have tenants who are reluctant to let us in when not part of an official inspection. Or maybe Im too trusting/not assertive enough (not something im commonly accused of, mind)

You probably dont txt folk as late in the evening tho as it gets darker earlier up north…

[Dean3]

Hi Chris, I’m pretty sure so far that it is just the tenant being somewhat of a private person type than anything nefarious (I hope) and standing her ground more than the actual request to visit itself. The main reason I will be attending is to meet this new workman to gain a feel for their work and build a contact for such works going forward and to ask a couple of questions about some of the electrics in the house but I have since explained this to the tenant and that I won’t be present for all of the potential 2 hours or so that the testing may take, Hopefully this appeases her, will see on the 18th?

[Dean3]

Hi LT, yes they are a young couple but not overly new to renting etc. They did express they have never had a LL visit for such things hence the initial questioning as to why, I honestly thought my valid explanation was justified, as you say it’s a massive asset etc but I get the impression she’s just standing her ground more than anything, that and her father works for the council so I’m guessing since I’m a new to them LL they may be some parental pressure being given towards me via the daughter?

[Brian7]

A lot of good tips for tenant management, like you I manage my properties from start to finish. Historically even with good tenants if I’ve ever had access problems that has been an indicator that something is wrong.

Some of those have been fixed by discussions with the tenant and other lead to S21 rather than S8, and unfortunately S8 and bailiffs.

A couple of flags from my perspective, you mentioned the word fuse box, I don’t know if you’re just using old terms but if you have one, it is more than likely you need to upgrade this and possibly any earthing. If you’re having problems getting electricians then you need to tell the electrician upfront if anything needs doing to do it whilst there. Alternatively, he rings you whilst he’s there tells you what’s needed so that he can do it.

The other thing is, you can give notice to the tenant that you are going to do an inspection very shortly and rather than having two visits to disturb them you would like to combine the two. Informed them that you will not be there all the time the Electrician is as your inspection will not take the same time. However, if works are identified by the electrician he will need to continue doing this during his visit or he may have to return.. Either way, safety is paramount and we must take the Electrician’s advice. During his works and electricity may be off for

If you get on with the Electrician prior to the visit, you can ask him for any observations.

It’s very easy for the written word to be received the wrong way, we do not know whether the person receiving the message is undergoing relationship, financial or employment issues which is affecting their stress levels.

I did have one tenant that was fairly stressed out that he just lost his job, being a good tenant. He rang me and told me but unfortunately two weeks later his partner lost their job too. I told them not to worry we would work something out and if he didn’t mind putting his hand to anything as I could help him a little bit with some work and they could catch up with the rent later. This reduced the stress levels and built the relationship. They ended up paying all the back rent and I gave the partner some advice to help start their own business which is still going well.A year later they moved on to bigger place and still doing well..

With many options and things going on with the tenant which could still be property related, it could be some of the points previously mentioned by other landlords or it could simply be they have stresses in their life and they really don’t need any anymore and feel pressured.

Sometimes you have to give a little bit of slack, if that slack is abused then your Business hat must come on.
Either way an esrly inspection is recommended whether it’s combined with the Electrician or shortly after.

[Dean3]

Hi Susan, I do always meet prospective tenants in person, handling the initial enquiries and visits personally to get a feel for a tenants etc and then obviously do checks/references via OpenRent. I choose these tenants over others because they came across as a lovely young couple wanting to get ahead, there were some difficulties on their financials but the mother agreed and passed as guarantor etc. Hopefully this is just a misunderstanding, will see on the 18th.

[Dean3]

Hi Cherrie, @David240

Appreciate everyone’s feedback here in this learning journey, I agree with most everything both of you have highlighted and I have since messaged the tenant to clarify I do not intend to be inside the property whilst the Electrician is there as I feel this wasn’t made clear in the text convo. I still intend to meet the chap as i do have a couple of questions regards the consumer unit mainly that i’d like a professionals advice on but as you say to respect the tenants right to Quiet Enjoyment even though a tradesman will be present , I won’t be inside the property. I will also be taking to chap to another property where I will have to let him in hence two birds one stone situation though. Whilst I understand your points I will say as a tenant myself previously I would have thought at such an early stage in the tenant/LL relationship (tenant only moved in mid Dec) that to be so argumentative so soon doe’s not bode well is my gut feeling. It is not something I would ever object to personally but everyones different.

[Dean3]

@tatemono ha ha the dark north hey lol. In my defence as I explained to the tenant when she pulled the whole “ its inappropriate to be texting this late at night” etc i was only ever replying to her not sending a text for my own queries, so I thought it rude not to reply

[Dean3]

Hi Brian, as with others here many thanks for your input. I have found the replies very informative to myself and looking at this from a tenants perspective.

Apologies the property does have a modern consumer unit (fuse box to us old faffs).

As others have pointed out to avoid you having to read many replies I have decided not to visit inside the house as such but will meet and greet the electrician outside on his arrival and ask my queries that way, I will be working from my vehicle or lovcal cafe until he is finished and then taking him to access another property, hopefully this keeps everyone happy. And whilst I understand others replies regards a tenant Quiet Enjoyment It still rests uneasy for me personally so soon in to a AST period.

Cheers D

[Dean3]

So to all who expressed a response, many thanks. some interesting view points I had to consider over my own biased perspective which I took onboard, so thank you for your time.

To update on events on the day itself after confirming I would still attend to meet the Electrician, ask my questions and then disappear until he was finished etc. I did find his input to my queries truly valuable so I would advise any other LL wanting to learn and ask to definitely meet the tradesperson for such things, there is simply no way most tenants can offer to give you that information second hand so to speak.

As it turns out the “awkward” tenant messaged the night before to say it was only because her young daughter was at home during school holidays etc that she didn’t want too many strangers in the house. Why she didn’t just say this on the night we had a disagreement I don’t know, I’m not an ogre and would have been far more understanding to this explanation than an outright we don’t want the LL here!!

She also joked about how they had waited in all day the previous Wednesday and then realised she’d got the wrong week, . Even more reason I prefer to at least meet a tradesperson to make sure access is definitely allowed as it’s myself who pays the no show fee.

And then on the day in question she wasn’t even there as she had taken the child out to a funfair, her partner the young lad was there and I think from his demeanour he was embarrassed about the whole debacle tbh. I did apologise if she had to take her daughter out for the day due to disturbances etc to which she said “It’s fine, it’s school holidays and we were bored anyway so went to an indoor fun fair” etc.

Basically no need for all this concern and stress in my opinion and to top it, after a few days she sent a text to apologise, it had been a hard week at work for her.

Some lessons learned along the way and see how we go going forward, I have until May if I do decide to end the 6 month AST from renewing and I hope we can establish a better LL/Tenant relationship in that time.

Many thanks to all for your valued inputs

[tatemono]

Thanks for the detailed follow up. Not many posters provide that so it’s appreciated.