Landlord Attending During works - Opinions Please

Landlord Discussion
1

Hello all,

I have a new tenant (7 weeks in) who is expressing dissatisfaction that I wish to attend when an Electrician has been booked to attend to perform a new EICR check.

As a bit of context the brief details leading to this are, since taking over this property I have been unable to obtain the original EICR cert and unable to get the details of the company who performed it years ago to obtain a copy hence as per guidelines having to obtain a new cert to be compliant. This situation was explained to the new tenant and all parties were happy, and whilst I appreciate this is not the ideal circumstances it is what it is and Iā€™m trying to resolve this at the earliest convenience to appease the tenant and remain compliant.

As a backdrop I am self managing the property and explained this to the tenant who initially seemed happy to have such an interested hands on landlord that cared about his property. But now when I have arranged a new company to perform the EICR testing and expressing I will be attending to not only meet this new to myself tradesman and build a possible working relationship going forward I would also like to understand and see this element of my property (the electrics) from a professionals input. Obviously I did not know if the tenant would be available on the date arranged so would attend to allow access but they will be home and have expressed they would rather I not attend as they will allow access and inform me of the electricians work etc.

I find this not only strange following my valid reasons to them (wanting to understand and view the work carried out but also to build contacts for future electrical works if needed), I am aware I do not need permission to attend such works only that minimum notice is given which it has (11 days).

I would very much appreciate other landlords experience in such matters as I find this puzzling especially at such an early stage of building a working relationship with a new tenant.

regards

D

2

With new tenants I always perform an inspection one month in and then again quarterly after that.

Just inform them that you will be attending to do an inspection on the same day as the engineer and that, as per the tenancy agreement (I hope), this is standard. Explain that inspections will require access to every room and that, as they have an engineer attending anyway, youā€™ve decided that this is a perfect opportunity to attend without causing further inconvenience to the tenant.

Thank them for their cooperation and then simply turn up.

If they refuse this then something dodgy is going on. Iā€™d be minded to sit outside property discreetly and see whoā€™s coming and going.

Alternatively, get the EICR and then you should have all the paperwork you need to issue an S21.

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3

Thank you Tatemono, good suggestion to incorporate an inspection (two birds, one stone). I will use this. Regards S21, I believe due to this tenancy commencing mid Dec 25 I can still use S21 if issued before May when new rules are introduced. The tenancy 6 months end date would be June anyway so issuing an S21 in April would give the 2 months notice etc.

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@Dean3

I must admit I have had similar feelings with tenants appearing reluctant for me to be there outside of official inspections, such as to let tradesmen in or to take photos /video of faults - even when otherwise they are good tenants.

One Ive established is concerned because their cat has a tendency to escape into communal hallway. Another Im still not sure.

However some tenants will have read about their right to quiet enjoyment. And remember the power is all in hands of LL who can (currently) evict with 2months notice for no reason at all (and tenant may well have heard of this happening esp at moment). They have very little security of tenure, dont know you and no doubt had a stressful time finding a new place. Some may be doing something wrong (a pet, partner or other thing not allowed) or worry that they might be, others simply value their privacy or dont want to have to make sure the place is spotless for when you visit. Few of us like being inspected or judged whether by a friend or a LL with the power to make them leave and upend their life. They wont refuse entry but remember itā€™s their home too.

For an electrician doing an EICR are you really going to stand over them and follow them around the place while they test circuits etc? Thereā€™s no reason you cant build the relationship by waiting outside and talking to them there once they are done or simply over the phone. Unless you are worried they are v cheap and will be in and out in 5min.

The fact you are considering s21 even for this is exactly why some tenants will feel scared and paranoid about letting a LL in when itā€™s not needed.

Maybe post on tenants forum and see whether tenants can give any insights into whether they mind having LL there when tradesmen do repairs etc and reasons theyā€™d prefer not

Good luck

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Hi David,

some good points raised there which I may have assumed the tenant would have known, EG: No I wonā€™t be watching over the electrician through-out the full EICR testing and would of course wait outside after an initial chat and then at the end. Regards costs, this particular company are amongst the most expensive but their availability was the quickest and hence with me trying to appease the tenant regards the EICR cert ASAP thinking Iā€™m doing my best to resolve the situation I may have taken it a little personally, that coupled with the fact when interviewing the tenants I did explain Iā€™m a very hands on/self managing LL and try my best to resolve things as quickly as I can which they really appreciated so to have this attitude thrown back at me just feels a little bitter TBH. My uneasy concern in all honesty is the tenants reluctance to accept me attending and insistence with numerous texts etc so soon in to what is a new relationship between us and does in light of the upcoming RRA make me feel like ending the tenancy when the 6 month AST expires via S21 etc. Sounds harsh I appreciate but I honestly do my damnedest to help my tenants and this feels very awkward so soon, I wouldnā€™t behave the same to a LL if I was renting but I respect other peoples property, call me old fashioned?

P.S. Great idea regards asking a tenants perspective which I have now posted on Tenants Discussions, thank you David.

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@Dean3

Itā€™s nothing to do with respect for property (one of the two tenants I mentioned even fixes stuff unasked and without payment as is a handyman). Very hard to judge attitudes from txts or emails (tone doesnt always come across as intended) esp for people who dont know you - people hear what they want. Eg I told you things you might not have considered and you replied saying tenants may be ignorant/unawareā€¦

Maybe as a compromise just meet electrician outside at start and then at end, and tell tenant thatā€™s what youā€™ll be doing? Tenant will know where meters and fusebox is etc and unless there is something you know you need to show electrician or ask about, what actually is the purpose of you going in? Even then you can just tell them by phone or before they enter. If there is an issue they want to show you they can call you in or just take photos and discuss with you outside afterwards

Why do you need to invade their privacy unnecessarily? Being hands-on isnt the same as entering their home whenever you can whenever thereā€™s an excuse. They will have interpreted hands on as meaning you say you get stuff fixed promptly (which you havent actually done by failing to get EICR before they moved in and taking >7 weeks to organize ) not that youd be inside their home at every opportunity..

Ps 2020 hindsight lesson (which i have also had to learn myself) is to discuss and agree things like frequency of inspections and access for repairs etc before they move in, not when needed

Good luck

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Good points, well made. In my defence albeit still not adequate I did have an electrician arranged on an earlier date but he didnā€™t show up or even reply to my comms. LL lessons being learned either way here, appreciate your input.

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Absolutelyā€¦ people might make strong assumptions like this:

The guy simply wants to do exactly what I did last week when I accompanied an EPC surveyorā€™s visit to a property: establish a relationship, get some clarity on the property and discuss any issues that arise. Thatā€™s entirely reasonable and doesnā€™t interfere with quiet enjoyment. In fact, Iā€™d say thatā€™s exactly what a ā€œhands-on landlordā€ would do with a new property.

Itā€™s not the Spanish Inquisition.

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I wasnt making assumptions I was making the point (with more emotive language deliberately) that some people would see unnecessary intrusion an invasion of privacy. Personally I would be fine with a LL visiting with a trademan but I know others are more sensitive on these things than myself and have experienced it as a LL. For an electrician doing an EICR itā€™s entirely unnecessary to enter unless you alresdy know you have specifics that are easier to point out and discussed in person (eg if worried a wire may be loose but even that could be flsgged outside without entering.)

For an EPC where you want the assessors to avoid making incorrect assumptions and are more asking their advice on options to improve thereā€™s more of an obvious reason to go with them, and again Id usually suggest that but if the tenant prefers not id not be thinking of s21 for them eitherā€¦thereā€™s always some give and take in these relationships unless you establish the rules at the startā€¦

..NObody expects /Dont mention the war :grinning_face:

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Your name is on the list David Pike.

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David & Tatemono, you both make great points, in fact I really appreciated Davidā€™s input last night, it did give me an alternative perspective and as Tatemono said above that is exactly the reason I wanted to attend so I can establish a relationship, get some clarity on the property and discuss any issues that arise. I understand thinking of the S21 route may seem harsh, but Iā€™m worried with this being at such an early stage in to this tenancy and the option of S21 being taken away I might end up in a sticky situation, my experience although limited (because up to now I have had exceptionally obliging tenants) is that folk donā€™t change.

My present understanding is because the tenancy started mid Dec 25 I do still have the option to issue the S21 after 4 months which would be mid April, this falls before the May 1st RRA starts and this also gives the minimum 2 month notice with the 6 month ASt ending mid June.

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12

@Dean3

Irrespective of how you deal with the specific visit by the electrician; I did and do agree with @tatemono 's excellent suggestion of an early initial inspection to see how things are going then regular inspections thereafter. Say that its required by your insurance (and it may well be, actually)

Itā€™s not just a way to inspect but also to build trust with the tenant and discuss and agree boundaries, how best to communicate with each other and listen to any issues or concerns, what the expectation are for repairs and trades visiting to do maintenance, gas safety certificates, EPCs etc. At the end if it doesnt come up you can thank for their time and casually ask why exactly they werent keen on you accompanying the electrician who was doing work on what of course is both their home but also your property. It might be anything from a previous bad experience with a LL visit or just theyve been told to by someone or they are v houseproud and dont want a LL in if there could be any mess.

Maybe Iā€™m too trusting but I like to think Iā€™d try to give people at least one opportunity to explain themselves while i look them in the eye, before i start evicting them, certainly if they are paying on time and generally good tenants. If you still dont feel comfortable with their explanation and feel you cant trust them then of course consider whether the working relationship is worth trying continuing or if s21 better.

This sort of thing is exactly why LLs have been so upset by the end of s21 -feels unfair and someone shouldnā€™t have to be in rent arrears or damaging a property before you can ask them to leave what is your property - and why equally some tenantsā€™ advocates like Shelter have opposed s21 - feels unfair to them if a tenant pays on time but doesnā€™t accede to every LL request and can be evicted for almost ā€œno reason at allā€.

Good luck

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Hi David,

as always I appreciated your full input here and it does pull me out of my bias when looking at this. Regards the tenants reasoning for asking me why I need to also come, she originally seemingly asked out of curiosity even saying she wasnā€™t trying to be rude etc and that in her previous houses they never had a LL come for similar things to which I explained pretty much as Tatemono said, that I wanted to meet the chap to ask a couple of Qā€™s about the Fuse Board itself and to ascertain his credentials with a view to building my contact base for such works if needed in future. She thanked me for explaining and then proceeded to state weā€™ll be home, can provide access and since itā€™s a qualified Electrician we donā€™t see the need for me to be there.

I thanked her for offering assisting with access and reiterated Iā€™ll be attending for reasons previously mentioned.

Herā€¦not trying to be awkward but struggling top understand why I want to be there. In her experience LL havenā€™t been present and this feels unusual, thereā€™s no legal requirement for me to be there weā€™d prefer only the Electrician to be there.This is causing stress a little now for no reason.

Again I expressed I do not understand why you object to the owner being present to meet a new to myself tradesman, ascertain there professionalism and understand certain aspects of my property. I conveniently returned the ā€œStressā€ rubbish too in order to start protecting myself when hearing this fall back excuse IMHO.

Her..Thereā€™s no practical oe legal need for you to be there, weā€™re happy to proceed with the electrician as arranged.

Me.. calmly explained my reasons AGAIN, thanked her for assisting and expressed my vested interest in this situation especially since iā€™m paying a considerably higher price for this company to come test since they can come much quicker than a cheaper company so also beneficial to her etc.

Shye then basically said its inappropriate to be contacting this late at night (this boiled my blood i must admit) and if iā€™m wanting to know more about my property and any tradesman thats a personal thing.

I finally replied along the lines i agree it is late and i have no desire to cause either myself or her any more stress over this matter and that it is not inappropriate to reply to a tenant who persisted in messaging myself this late but would be rude not to address her concerns. (She obviously wanted the last dam say).

Anyway since then I simply clarified I would not be there in the house during testing other than to meet and greet the chap and ask the couple of Qs i had to assure her I wouldnā€™t be in the house for the couple of hours the test may take just so she didnā€™t assume I would be and asked her not to reply.

Bit long winded for you and heavily summarised but though you might like a chuckle. In all honesty Iā€™m growing more fed up of tenants tbh.

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@Dean3

Hmmm yes well glad you had a bit of a conversation tho if it was by txt or email as i think you may have suggested earlier, that will have been part of the issue. My experience of disagreements even with people I know is that restating a reason I gave earlier may feel good but is more often me being frustrated and somehow stubbornly egotistically thinking Im right and justified and if only I say it a second time they might understand- whereas usually they understood perfectly 1st time and just werent convincedā€¦

People do sometimes get entrenched into positions and/or see things like this from different perspectives and you rarely see all the backdrop.baggage. If as a LL you are trying to be as involved and hands-on and helpful as possible you will want to be there building a relationship with tradesmen so you can confidently use them over and over. If as a tenant youā€™ve never experienced that and instead its always been handsoff and that has worked or even you have had problems with landlords intruding (or even stalkers etc), you may well think itā€™s unusual because frankly it is and then worry what it is the LL really wants. Some people who have had to deal with renting stuff legally will always thereafter think ā€œwhatā€™ s legal?ā€. People can be paranoid. There are no tv shows called ā€˜lovely caring landlordsā€™. Few people except management consultants wake up and look forward to change and uncertainty and even fewer do so late at night when they are tired.

My experience of being a LL is that even the best tenant will bring to you some niggle or other, all tradesmen will criticise other tradesmenā€™work, utility companies are uniformly great at setting up accounts and sending bills and much less good when anything goes wrong, and after redecorating every inch of a place I notice every scratch on the paintwork (including the ones i touched in myself after an electrician or plumber damaged something). Appliances go wrong within 12 months which are supposed to last years. The govt puts up taxes. Imposes higher energy standards for PRS; makes it harder to evict bad tenants. Mortgage rates dont always go down. There is always the risk of a nightmare tenant. There are so many causes of little and big stress and worry and you have to have a reasonably thick skin. Or do something else.

Myself I wouldnā€™t see the conversation you reported as nearly enough reason for considering a s21. We canā€™t all like or get on with or need to have.exactly the same views and perspectives as people we work with, let alone our customers (which is what tenants are, paying for an expensive service),and worrying about a relatively small issue like this really isnt worth it - you could have very much worse tenants next time. If you want no issues do short term lets or airbnb and treat your place more like a hotel so they arent there long and you can organise things how you like. In fact the worst thing would be renting to someone who was a friend or family member exactly because itā€™s more difficult if things go pear shaped because there are personal relationships too.

Good night

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Always a fantastic reply, many thanks David and Goodnight sir :+1:

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Really helpful to see the chain of events that led to this @Dean3. Had it been me, I would have been on the phone after the first response from her. As David has already pointed out, itā€™s very hard to get tone right in texts and I think things have escalated as a result of only using that medium.

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absolutely. But the conversation may be a clue to something that would defnitely provide a solid case for a S21. Letting is a high risk business (these forums provide ample evidence of that) and so I always err on the side of caution. Someone refusing access like this could well be trying to shield themselves from obvious tenancy breaches.

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Your contract will allow you to go into the property subject to notice for works etc. Itā€™s your property - very simple. If the EICR test says you need work, then you want to be sure and understand the extent so you can brief the tenant.

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Cheers James, appreciate everyoneā€™s input here to gain a better perspective. Quite ironic i also posted on the Tenants discussion for an alternative outlook and no tenants have bothered offering their point of view. I have since clarified with the tenant albeit via the text convo we exchanged that I will be present to greet the electrician, ask a few minor Qā€™s then will be away until the testing is complete as opposed to in the house, that is reasonable I feel.

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do let us know how it goes

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