David
I spoke to a lawyer today who told me I’m in a precarious position, at the whim of a judge … that when the section 21 goes before a judge the landlord may present compelling evidence (such as ‘the tenant did not allow a gas safety check to take place) rather than taking into consideration that because I have a year to year tenancy, I should be provided with 6 months notice.
Is there evidence that you prevented a gas safety check taking place? Was this a housing lawyer or just a generic high street guy?
Its certainly true that judges can make odd decisions sometimes and there is always a risk that it would go against you.
All the documents that the landlord needs to provide to you to comply with the s21 can be served late, (as long as they are served before the notice). The critical requirement is that a GSC was in place before the tenancy began. If there was not, then Trecarrell v Rouncefield says that a valid s21 notice can NEVER be served. I guess you may not know whether there was a valid GSC that was just never given to you, so that could be a risk too.
I do not have any Gas Safety Certificates from 2010 onwards.
LL emailed to have a GSC done but it was sent to an email address I seldom use, it’s mostly for subscriptions etc.
Citizens Advice are very good in this situation. They can provide a person who who check the documents, give you the options, and represent you in court if necessary.
The GSC is an important is important as your property is unsafe without it, and illegal.
Where is the deposit? I presume you do not have a deposit certificate. That carries a requirement in court for the deposit to be returned in full and the starting fine is x 1 of the deposit as compensation. If it is judged serious this will rise to x 3 of the amount of deposit.
There is a register online for the EPC. It is is also required. There is an exemption if the tenancy started before a certain date and the higher level only kicks in then, but I cant recall the details.
I agree that the LL might offer you money to leave as I think they would likely be fined by the judge if they did try to go to court, the solicitor has also likely been misled as the agent was. However given the situation I would go to the solicitor and tell them about the missing documents. That will mean the solicitor may advise their client to settle and negotiate on their behalf, and possibly they will also withdraw representation if they feel they were also misled.
Hi Paul
I haven’t been able to get in touch with Citizens Advice but that sounds very helpful and I will continue to try.
Presumably, they are very busy. I just need someone to clarify as sometimes things don’t seem straightforward.
I can’t understand that since my contract clearly says ‘year to year’ why it would mean anything less. I’m praying Shelter haven’t got this wrong because their advice brings me some comfort.
It shouldn’t take a court room for me and the LL just to get some clarity!
David
I’ve been in touch with Shelter, Citizens Advice and Justice For Tenants who have all looked at my tenancy and agree that I have a yearly tenancy and with that the implication that I should receive six months notice, as we discussed here. Similarly, the property agent who represented my LL, wrote to me and said, yes, you have a yearly tenancy.
I found some good information on the website of Gatehouse Chambers in London in an article called ‘ Notices to quit: the landlord’s step-by-step guide to getting it right’ which explains the notice period required for a yearly periodic tenancy. It also has good information on how the frequency of payments does not affect the notice requirement, with legal citations included. It also explains when the notice should be served.
The S21 I received expires on April 2 and I need to be prepared. You have been incredibly helpful and I would love you to take a look at this article. It summarises everything you have advised so far and the staff of Gatehouse Chambers are predominantly KC’s. That your advice is consistent with theirs shows not only your understanding but also the usefulness of this forum. I have such gratitude for your expertise and the time you have spent helping me.
What I am now thinking about is my next step; I don’t know whether it’s worth reaching out to the LL and coming to a compromise. I can hopefully buy a property in six months - I don’t want them wasting money on lawyers when it seems they are being misled. They’ve been rotten to me and my family but I just want resolution and a pathway out of this. I’m aware of the notion that ‘ Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster… for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.’
I’m not happy continually fighting, they need to sell, I just need time commensurate with the legal agreement we all signed.
Any advice?
Also, I no longer know where the LL lives - I only have a telephone number …
I had a quick look at the article, but it deals only with common law Notices to Quit, which don’t apply to assured tenancies like yours. However, I do think that the notice period applies, so I would still agree that his s21 has to be a minimum of 6 months.
Given this, I think that your suggestion sounds very sensible M1130. Not least, because you don’t want to be hoist by your own petard. In other words you don’t want the landlord insisting you also give 6 months notice.
I would suggest a carefully planned phone call or text stating that you’ve taken advice and believe his notice is invalid. As you don’t want to see him waste more money on this, you would like to agree a compromise whereby you leave as soon as you’ve been able to purchase a property and that he accepts one month notice from you at that point. If he agrees then you would need something in writing and signed from him to that effect.
David
Just to be certain, in the S21 Form 6A , it says ‘you are required to leave the below address after 2nd April 2024 … if you do not leave, your landlord may apply to the court …’ and it then states ‘if you are entitled to more than 2 months notice, your landlord can rely on this notice to apply to the court during the period of 4 months commencing the date specified in section 2 above. In all other cases, your landlord can rely on this notice to apply to the court during the period of 6 months commencing from the date this notice is given to you’
So, my final question, the S21 has still been served incorrectly because the yearly tenancy requires a full six month notice?
…… and although my tenancy agreement has a header which says ‘Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement’ in the ‘Term’ it sates ‘The term of the agreement is a periodic tenancy commencing at 12:00 noon on 1 April 2010 and continuing on a year to year basis until the landlord or the tenant terminates the tenancy. Any notice to quit must comply with the act’ …. Therefore, as a periodic tenancy from the outset, does the advice from Gatehouse Chambers definitely not apply?
you haven’t mentioned if you received the correct paperwork for the deposit when you moved in. Do you have a piece of paper that is labelled “Prescribed information” at the top, or a scheme leaflet from whichever deposit scheme the LL placed your deposit into? Did you sign anything to say that you had received these in 2010?
Yes, as I said, I would agree that the required notice period in your case is 6 months and so the landlords notice is too short and hence invalid.
Which bit of Gatehouse’ advice are you thinking of?
David
Thank you.
I think with the Gatehouse Chambers synopsis, I was looking for a square peg to fit a round hole. Because my tenancy agreement is obviously a cobbled together mess of terms, ie an assured shorthold tenancy where the term is a periodic tenancy running April to April, I genuinely thought that somehow the Gatehose advice fitted my situation perfectly. I was obviously wrong.
However, all the guidance I have, including from you, indicates that the tenancy I have requires six months notice … which more or less amounts to the same as the info in the Gatehouse piece.
If I can be so bold as to ask one more thing? Can the LL serve me six months notice now (given the currrent S21 is invalid) or does it have to expire on the anniversary of the commencement? Ie if I was to be a stick in the mud - and have bargaining power - would the earliest they can serve a valid notice be October 1st?
Hi Tatemono
I didn’t pay any deposit at all.
In a periodic AST, the landlord can serve a s21 notice at any time and s(4ZA) of the Housing Act 1988 suspends the requirement for it to expire on the last day of a tenancy period. He can therefore serve you a 6 month notice now, but I’m not clear whether the other prescribed requirements of s21 have yet been satisfied to ensure that a s21 notice would be valid.
Is it necessary to have a valid gas safety certificate etc for a tenancy which began pre 2015? Some legal people I’ve spoken to think not.
I’m relying on the fact I have a year to year tenancy and hence six months notice to make the section21 invalid.
Any guidance would be most appreciated.
What would you write to the LL?
For a tenancy begun before October 2015, a valid gas cert is not a requirement for a s21 notice, (although it is still a legal requirement under gas safety legislation).
I think that 2 key questions you should ask yourself is how you think the landlord will react to a proposal to compromise, and how much further time you think you’ll need at the property, (be realistic). Its not usually in your interest to tell the landlord that his notice is invalid as this will buy your extra time, but the trade-off is that the landlord will be less willing to compromise. Assuming it now takes him at least a couple more months to discover that his notice is invalid at court, it would give you around a further 8 months before any valid notice he serves expires.
David
I’m getting very nervous because I spoke to a solicitor who deals with getting tenants out today and they said there’s no such thing as a requirement for six months notice whatsoever. They said it just isn’t possible. When I told them Shelter, Justice for Tenants and Citizens Advice all agreed I should be given six months notice as per my yearly tenancy they said that those organisations are simply advocates for tenants rights and give incorrect information.
The solicitor said that a S21 with months notice was adequate and proper to get us evicted.
Any thoughts?
Sounds like he’s trying to scare you. I should warn you that I have no actual experience of this legislation, its just what I believe to be the case having read about the experience of others. I can offer you no duty of care over this issue, so you may want to consult a landlord and tenant solicitor yourself. You should be able to get some initial advice free of charge.
David
Firstly, I know you advise informally on here and I take it on that basis. I have such gratitude for your help and understand the premise of your advice.
I think the Solicitors were pitching for £275 per hour - I was just confounded that they said there’s no such thing as six months notice for a yearly tenancy. They said it was not possible to do this and the advice of Shelter, Justice for Tenants and Citizens Advice has no basis in law.
Bearing in mind that Shelter provided comprehensive advice, surely the basic on having a periodic tenancy which runs year to year would in fact mean a longer notice period than a month to month?
On Citizens Advice website, there is a section called ‘if you want to end your private tenancy’ which covers most of everything we have spoken about here.
Any thoughts?