I used an OR gas safety engineer from their network and he failed to put an address on the gas safety cert (which could cause issues when issuing a S21) in the client details section. He only stated: OpenRent Ltd
Does anyone know which OR rent address he should have added? The Altrincham one or the London one?
3rd Floor 1 Ashley Road, Altrincham, Cheshire, WA14 2DT.
20 Wenlock Road, London, N1 7GU
Thanks
I’ve had 4 different gas engineers over the last few years and not one of them completed the CP12 form correctly until I forced the issue. They basically just want the minimum effort on the job. I would check all the other fields are properly completed if I were you.
Thanks David. Yeah pretty poor stuff!
And do you know the answer to my question?
Check they have entered their own name and gas safe registration properly - if they aren’t registered gas safe engineer then it’s not legal whatever address they have or haven’t entered for OR.
@mod_harry should be able to find out for you what address they should be giving for OR.
Just reject the certificate as not providing what you actually paid for and get OR to provide a fully completed certificate- if they have to get it updated and re-issued by engineer or organise a brand new visit/certificate that should be their problem not yours - it is OR who subcontracted the engineer, and will make the engineer do things properly next time. You have no power over the engineer and it’s OR you have paid so OR responsibility to ensure what their suppliers provide is up to scratch.
Good luck
I doubt the OR address should feature, but I don’t know the arrangement OR have with their contractors.
I have had an engineer leave behind a copy of a certificate for a totally different property!
Surely Openrent aren’t the client . @Matthew57 is the client ?
@David79 if OR use suppliers to provide a service and have a contract with them then from the supplier’s perspective OR is the client.
@Matthew57 is OR’s client but has no direct contract with the gas safety engineer so is not their client.
OR are acting as an agent on behalf of the Landlord so if Landlord name and address not given, OR name and address needs to be, exactly the same as if property was being managed by a letting agent who organize the certificate. Otherwise a s21 can be rejected.
This is where my confusion lies. I’m not sure Openrent are the Landlords managing agent. Personally in this situation I’d expect LL (@Matthew57 ) name and address to be on the cert.
@David79 agree that would be ideal but how exactly would the gas engineer know the LL name and address? They have probably been told the address to visit and may have been let in by a tenant. By paying Openrent to source the gas engineer they are acting as an agent on LL’s behalf just like a lettings agent would be (and likely taking a commission). It would be different if OR simply provided a service to put LLs in touch with engineers.
But @mod_harry can get OR’s legal team to confirm whether by paying OR to organize the certificate, OR are acting as an agent and therefore the certificate is valid for s21 purposes with OR and OR’s address listed or whether the gas engineer needs to supply a certificate with the LL’s name and address. I agree with you the latter would be safer/better as leaves no room for doubt so @Matthew57 could ask for that anyway (as Certificate supplied needs changing anyway as OR address missing)
The legal requirements for the contents of a CP12 certificate are:
(i)the date on which the appliance or flue was checked;
(ii)the address of the premises at which the appliance or flue is installed;
(iii)the name and address of the landlord of the premises (or, where appropriate, his agent) at which the appliance or flue is installed;
(iv)a description of and the location of each appliance or flue checked;
(v)any defect identified;
(vi)any remedial action taken;
(vii)confirmation that the check undertaken complies with the requirements of paragraph (9) below;
(viii)the name and signature of the individual carrying out the check; and
(ix)the registration number with which that individual, or his employer, is registered with a body approved by the Executive for the purposes of regulation 3(3) of these Regulations
I think this wording is confusing , it would be good for Openrent to confirm that under these circumstances they are indeed the Landlords agent.
I’m not sure that OR would qualify as the agent for this purpose as they are a letting agent, not a managing agent. I think the option to include the agent’s details is if they are dealing with tenants on queries about the cert or the gas installation at the property. I’m sure OR would confirm either way.
@David122 according to the hse page
(Google “Gas safety check records and what to keep hse"l
You do not have to sign the record but your name and address or that of your letting agent must be included on the record.
so OR as a letting agent should be fine?
Best
I wouldnt necessarily trust that. The problem with all Government advice documents is that the detail and language is often imprecise and courts often rule the opposite. Im not aware of any case law on this specific point, but I wouldnt want to rely on the use of the HSE term “letting agent”.
@David122 hopefully OR’s legal team can advise on whether ok for gas engineer to complete using OR name and address and why, or if their supplied contractors should be filling in the LL details instead. Either way @Matthew57 should be getting an amended/updated certificate from the engineer
@mod_harry advice please
@mod_harry , any clarification regarding Openrents position on the situation in this thread. I think it may affect a lot of Landlords who use the service and the legality of some certificates being issued.
I’ve taken another more detailed look at the legislation to see if there are any clues as to what type of agent would meet the requirements of Regulation 36 (3)(c)(iii) of the Gas Safety Regulations 1998, which say that the certificate must contain:
“the name and address of the landlord of the premises (or, where appropriate, his agent) at which the appliance or flue is installed”.
The term agent is not defined in the Act or any other related legislation I’ve looked at. The HSE use the term “letting agent” in their guidance but it is not clear that they using the term to mean agents who are not responsible for the day to day management of the property. In the absence of any definition, it may be reasonable to assume that the term agent is intended to be permissive. However, there have been several legal challenges on the wording of the gas safety regs in recent years and most of them have gone against the landlord.
I think that the use of the words “where appropriate” in the clause above leaves it particularly open to challenge. How this would play out in a Court is anyone’s guess, but I think there could be arguments that “appropriate” must include an agent who is able to fulfil the same functions as a landlord with respect to the Act. The term “landlord” is defined in the Act and the duties and level of control of the gas installation is spelled out. For example, a relevant gas fitting is in part defined as one under the control of the landlord. The duties include ensuring that gas fittings are maintained in safe condition; ensuring that certificates are retained for at least 2 years; ensuring that any work required by the inspection is carried out etc. It is perhaps debatable whether all letting agents would meet these requirements.
I think that if I were using the OR gas safety inspection service, I would want the landlords name and address recorded in the cert until more concrete evidence of the alternative becomes available.
Finally, its also worth saying that the gas safety certificate is required to satisfy two separate pieces of legislation with slightly differing requirements. The Gas Safety (and Installation) Regulations 1998 as already mentioned, and The Assured Shorthold Tenancy Notices and Prescribed Requirements (England) Regulations 2015. For the Gas Safety Regs, the certificate needs to be given within 28 days, landlords only need to retain them for 2 years and for shared properties, its sufficient to display the certificate in the communal area instead of giving a copy to each tenant. However, none of these are sufficient for s21 purposes.
Great follow up there @David122 thanks . Hopefully Openrent will also take a look at this . They should definitely adopt a policy to ensure the legality of certificates being issued to Landlords who use this service.
Including OpenRent’s name and address on the Gas Safety Certificate does not invalidate the certificate.